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> Plea for WAV support
pueblo funky
post Oct 18 2008, 08:04
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Ok,

I want to explain the RIFF / WAV format with some screen shots!

The following WAV file has been imported by Wavelab 5, ID3 tagged with Tag & Rename + "WAV" tagged with Sony Soundforge 9.0e.

General overview:

A chunk (e.g. "WAVE") contains multiple subchunks (e.g. "fmt ", "data", "LIST", "bext", "id3 ", etc.). After the chunk id (4 bytes) follows the first subchunk id (4 bytes), followed by the size of the subchunk data (4 bytes) and then the subchunk data itself and then the next subchunk id and so on.

When you open this WAV file with a hexdump tool you would find the following:

1. Screen Shot:
Attached Image


At first you can see the id "RIFF" (red) and after that the size (green) of the following complete data ($000D7B8C - backwards!). When you add the next address $00000008 and the size of $000D7B8C you will have as result $000D7B94 which is the end of the file (see last screen shot).

As next starts the "WAVE" chunk (blue). This chunk contains a lot of subchunks:

Normally the first subchunk is "fmt " (orange) followed by the size of this subchunk (violet). This subchunk contains data like audio format, bits per sample, sample rate, number of channels, etc. When you add the next address $00000014 + the size of the subchunk $00000010 you land ...

at $00000024, where the subchunk "data" starts (yellow), followed by the size and the sound samples itself. Adding again the next address (after the size) $0000002C + the length of the subchunk $000D770C is $000D7738.

Let's look at $000D7738:
Attached Image


The subchunk "LIST" + the size $00000092. This subchunk specifies the blocks "INFO" and "exif" (see here). After "INFO" you can find the first tag "INAM" followed by the length $00000012 of the following text "You're The First" (incl. 2 zero bytes) and then the next tag and so on.

Following the logic, $000D7740 + length $00000092 = $000D77D2 - here starts the subchunk "bext" - specified anywhere. Following the logic, $000D77DA + length $0000025A = $000D7A34 ...

which lets us begin with the next subchunk - which is "id3 " biggrin.gif - see screen shot:
Attached Image


It starts with the subchunk id "id3 " + size and after that the ID3 specification (id3.org) begins - which you can find in typical MP3's.

$000D7A3C + $00000158 = $000D7B94 - which is the end of the file (the same as on the top).

So as you can see, the logic of subchunk + length of a subchunk makes it possible to add various subchunks.

If a program can not understand a specific subchunk - it must store it with the whole length and when the (changed) file will be saved again it writes the subchunk away as it has read it.

That's the specification but a lot of programs are not able to read the correct chunk & sub chunk logic.

I hope this helps.

This post has been edited by pueblo funky: Oct 19 2008, 09:56
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pueblo funky
post Oct 23 2008, 22:19
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Maybe fyi:

In http://www.id3.org/id3v2.4.0-structure, chapter 3, read the first paragraph:

QUOTE
ID3v2 is a general tagging format for audio, which makes it possible to store meta data about the audio inside the audio file itself. The ID3 tag described in this document is mainly targeted at files encoded with MPEG-1/2 layer I, MPEG-1/2 layer II, MPEG-1/2 layer III and MPEG-2.5, but may work with other types of encoded audio or as a stand alone format for audio meta data.


so but may work with other types of encoded audio means - not only MP3.

---

There is also one little RIFF chunk subchunk issue - but only for Florian who should program that biggrin.gif

QUOTE
One tricky thing about RIFF file chunks is that they must be word aligned. This means that their total size must be a multiple of 2 bytes (ie. 2, 4, 6, 8, and so on). If a chunk contains an odd number of data bytes, causing it not to be word aligned, an extra padding byte with a value of zero must follow the last data byte. This extra padding byte is not counted in the chunk size, therefor a program must always word align a chunk headers size value in order to calculate the offset of the following chunk.


taken from a WAV expert here (File Structure - 2nd paragraph).

(the size of the subchunk id must be even - so a zero byte has to be added after the last tag - if not even - that's all).
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pueblo funky
post Oct 23 2008, 22:34
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PS: Also AIFF files could be ID3 tagged ... it's the same as WAV. Here is an useful link: http://muratnkonar.com/aiff/aboutiff.html ... to find at the bottom ... read from
QUOTE
Microsoft decided that IFF was a good idea ...


RIFF = FORM = RIFX (with small differences).
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BatterseaBob
post Dec 19 2008, 19:20
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I have been using MP3Tag for quite a while and had to switch to Tag & Rename when I started moving to using WAV files.

Whilst Tag & Rename is an OK tool I do prefer MP3Tag and would happily put €50 into the pot for development costs.

I really miss being able to use the scripts from MP3Tag and have to do most of the changes I used to automate by hand now.

I don't know what format of tags are used in Tag & Rename, but they seem to work well and are read by almost every application I have used that supports reading WAV tags. So if MP3Tag could support the same it would be great.

I am also more than happy to do some testing on beta code if it helps.
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pueblo funky
post Dec 20 2008, 14:47
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QUOTE (BatterseaBob @ Dec 19 2008, 19:20) *
I have been using MP3Tag for quite a while and had to switch to Tag & Rename when I started moving to using WAV files.

Whilst Tag & Rename is an OK tool I do prefer MP3Tag and would happily put €50 into the pot for development costs.

I really miss being able to use the scripts from MP3Tag and have to do most of the changes I used to automate by hand now.

I don't know what format of tags are used in Tag & Rename, but they seem to work well and are read by almost every application I have used that supports reading WAV tags. So if MP3Tag could support the same it would be great.

I am also more than happy to do some testing on beta code if it helps.


The same for me. :-)

Note:

Tag & Rename 3.5 RC 1 has a bug - some software (e.g. Sony Sound Forge 9.0e) are reporting a bug on some WAV files with an ID3 tag when you try to open it. That is because T&R writes the id3 sub chunk sometimes with an odd number of bytes. It should be written with an even number of bytes (e.g. adding a zero byte).

Wavelab 5 isn't able to open WAV files with unknown subchunks (which didn't exist during the programming of the software - that's not a correct programming of the standard - Versino 6.06 (?) should be able to read/write them). For Wavelab 5 you have to remove the id3 tag (subchunk).
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pcourtney
post Aug 27 2011, 00:04
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QUOTE (pueblo funky @ Dec 20 2008, 14:47) *
The same for me. :-)

Note:

Tag & Rename 3.5 RC 1 has a bug - some software (e.g. Sony Sound Forge 9.0e) are reporting a bug on some WAV files with an ID3 tag when you try to open it. That is because T&R writes the id3 sub chunk sometimes with an odd number of bytes. It should be written with an even number of bytes (e.g. adding a zero byte).

Wavelab 5 isn't able to open WAV files with unknown subchunks (which didn't exist during the programming of the software - that's not a correct programming of the standard - Versino 6.06 (?) should be able to read/write them). For Wavelab 5 you have to remove the id3 tag (subchunk).


I am pretty sure this got fixed in RC2

Tag&Rename v3.5 rc 2 (13/02/2009):
added "Use check boxes to select files" option (improved check box files selection function)
added "Don't show splash screen on program startup" in advanced options
added "Use Vista style files selection in files list" in advanced options
added support of big sized cover art in wma/asf files
improved Album Artist tag frame support in ogg, flac and ape files
improved writing speed of wma/asf files
"Part of a compilation" data can be exported to cvs/xml now
minor interface improvements
fixed minor bug in shell extension
fixed bug in wav tags writing
minor bugs fixed

http://www.softpointer.com/tr_history.htm


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pcourtney
post Aug 27 2011, 00:11
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I know it has been a while, but has Florian added ID3 tagging support for WAV files ??

specifically the RIFF chunk way of doing it, as that is the only way Squeezebox devices can handle WAV files that have been tagged

Andyg on the Logitech forum ( one of the slimdevices developers) is on record as saying on the 26th January 2011

"SBS supports ID3-tagged WAV files but the ID3 tag has to be in a RIFF chunk called 'ID32' or 'ID3 '"

SBS = SqueezeboxServer

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85107

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/SqueezeCenter
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MrSinatra
post Aug 27 2011, 20:20
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QUOTE (pcourtney @ Aug 27 2011, 00:11) *
I know it has been a while, but has Florian added ID3 tagging support for WAV files ??

specifically the RIFF chunk way of doing it, as that is the only way Squeezebox devices can handle WAV files that have been tagged

Andyg on the Logitech forum ( one of the slimdevices developers) is on record as saying on the 26th January 2011

"SBS supports ID3-tagged WAV files but the ID3 tag has to be in a RIFF chunk called 'ID32' or 'ID3 '"

SBS = SqueezeboxServer

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85107

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/SqueezeCenter


SBS might support it, (u can never know with them), but even if they do, they probably shouldn't. my understanding is that sticking id3 tags into wav is a hack, like sticking them into FLAC files is a hack, and i don't think mp3tag should support that kind of thing. i want mp3tag to strip id3 from flacs, not edit id3 in flacs. same for wav.

my advice to people with wav is to convert to FLAC, and get the benefits of proper tagging while remaining lossless. saving space is a bonus.

(contrary to popular belief, wav does support limited tagging legitimately, i know audacity can properly tag a wav using a non-hack way, but i don't know if mp3tag does it or not, and it is very limited)

This post has been edited by MrSinatra: Aug 27 2011, 20:21


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DetlevD
post Aug 28 2011, 06:16
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QUOTE (pcourtney @ Aug 27 2011, 01:11) *
I know it has been a while, but has Florian added ID3 tagging support for WAV files ?? ...

Hmm, I think I remember that Florian has said here in the forum, that there are problems with the RIFF format, because there is no standard at all, and this keeps on with the implementation of a RIFF/ID3 container for WAV files.

DD.20110828.0717.CEST


--------------------
* Beyond that, don't ask, when you don't know what to do with the answer. *
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pcourtney
post Aug 28 2011, 17:17
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QUOTE (MrSinatra @ Aug 27 2011, 20:20) *
SBS might support it, (u can never know with them)


amazing post Mr Sinatra, SBS have supported ID3 tags in WAV files for ages, I use Tag&Rename to place ID3 tags in all my WAV files, and SBS is completely happy with them, so not sure where you are getting your facts from dude !

the new iPad2 Logitech Squezebox app is what I mostly use these days to remotely control my Duets at home, and cover art, tags all play very nicely, check out the free download trial at Tag&Rename, the best $30 USD I ever spent !

Just a shame that Florian can't be bothered to take some business away from Tag&Rename and get some more donations, not the end of the world I guess.
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MrSinatra
post Aug 28 2011, 18:40
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QUOTE (pcourtney @ Aug 28 2011, 18:17) *
amazing post Mr Sinatra, SBS have supported ID3 tags in WAV files for ages, I use Tag&Rename to place ID3 tags in all my WAV files, and SBS is completely happy with them, so not sure where you are getting your facts from dude !

the new iPad2 Logitech Squezebox app is what I mostly use these days to remotely control my Duets at home, and cover art, tags all play very nicely, check out the free download trial at Tag&Rename, the best $30 USD I ever spent !

Just a shame that Florian can't be bothered to take some business away from Tag&Rename and get some more donations, not the end of the world I guess.


i didn't say they didn't, (i wouldn't know b/c i never used that ability); however my point was that they frequently release versions that break old behavior.

SBS does support reading id3 in FLACs as well. but SBS is just a reader of tags, not a maker of tags, and i still contend that mp3tag should not engage in the making and editing of tag hacks. jmho.


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jgt1942
post Aug 28 2011, 20:44
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As I read through the thread I see several people are using WAV format and others have responded to the lack of standards (one super reason not to use it). I saw some comments that storage is not an issue - I would like to suggest that this is short-sighted thinking, especially as your libraries grow. A couple of years ago my music and audio book libraries (all in MP3 format) were rather small, today my music library is almost 400GB and my audio book is 1.3TB thus I have 1.7TB in MP3 files. If I were to use WAV format this would require at least 8TB for the same files. I highly suggest that you project ahead what you think you might need for storage and if you are just getting started multiply by 10 and be prepared if the estimate is too small. walkman.gif
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